Traffic...
It seems to me to be the number 1 reason for the potential changing of a bouldering grade.
The first ascentionist will give a line a grade. They've worked out a sequence, they've put in the time and they've earnedd the right to say:
"I thought it was 'this' hard"
Problem is, when more people come along and send the line, and find a new foot placement or someone really tall can skip a move, or someone finds a knee bar ;), etc etc etc, the grade is subject to change, usually with traffic - the problem is downgraded.
Equally though, traffic can mean a hold breaks and the grade goes up, because you can't do it 'that way' anymore.
I'm not sure - because this is my first year of living in Ayton's Cave for the Summer, but it seems as though there's been a LOT more traffic through the problems and lines of the Cave than there has been before.
I've seen lines there completed in a staggeringly varied number of ways. A new heel/toe cam, a new jug that was too wet all last year, a knee bar, a different angle - whatever! It would appear it's time to openly discuss the grades of the Cave!!
Firstly HOW do we grade them? There are really only about 2 bouldery problems in the Cave.
The Funk (7b+)
Afterthought (6b)
The rest are all like routes in a way - upside-down upside-down routes... but routes never the less.
They're about 10-15m in length and cannot equate to anything one might do in Wicklow or Fairhead or, in my narrow experience, anything in Ireland!
Is it the case that we take the easiest method to climb the line, even though it may not be the 'nicest' sequence?
Case and point: Maneater (7b)
It probably is 7b when you climb it using the original sequnce. However a 'hands off' knee bar rest was discovered on it this Summer and it's now the case that I was able to put it away in about 3-4 sessions. It's, for me, a whole lot easier than Solstice (7a+), which is a line where there's nowhere to hide - you can either do the hard moves or you can't.
However - Maneater is a lot prettier to look at when one climbs it the original way, and the sequence is far more like bouldering when one doesn't use the knee bars.
I haven't met anyone who doesn't have an opinion on the grades at the cave this year -
It's my opinion, the grades should be seen as fluid at the moment.
Any other thoughts?
I have never been to cave so am impartial. Strictly speaking the grade of a line should reflect the easiest way to get from A to B using the available holds. Sounds like the easiest way to do man-eater is with knee bar and grade should reflect that. i think variants/eliminates should stem from this baseline difficulty and not the other way around, ie Maneater (7a) (can also be climbed at 7b sans kneebar.) Personally i'd also like to think a double knee bar no-hands rest is something one should be including in a problem not trying to take out...
ReplyDeleteCave or not cave, grades should get adjusted through contentious - after several repeats are made, repeaters should agree to downgrade/upgrade (or to keep the grade as it is!).
ReplyDeleteer... consensus might be more appropriate doh!
ReplyDeleteI think consensus will always win out - but before there's a discussion on what grade to give, first I think there needs to be a discussion about what pool of grades we're dipping into?!
ReplyDeleteSport, boulder, traverse (is there a difference between sport/traverse grades?)
It's an interesting one - because, for Ireland, the Cave style of climbing is so very unique.
Equally - what defines a route/boulder problem - if you don't have a rope on - it's a boulder problem?
ReplyDeleteThere was a discussion about this on DPM's Facebook page that I never read, regarding 'Wheel of Life' -
They asked - route or boulder problem?
Just read it there and it's not very interesting - people say the obvious stuff - 'if there's no rope it's a boulder problem' -or- 'way too many moves to be a boulder problem, it's a route'
Grades are subjective and, in my experience, fairly specific to an area. Given time, some kind of consensus is reached, give or take a + or two, which is based around benchmark problems/grades. Eg. If you can climb 7x in the cave does that mean you'll do likewise on granite the next day? Whatever the case, your climbing will have more than likely improved from your training in the cave.
ReplyDeleteThat's my tuppence, take it easy,
What about the secret foot jam variation of loco? when I saw John H use it he made the 7A look more like a 6A.... might just be john too though.
ReplyDeleteIf it is just the easiest root that would take one of THE moves of the cave out except a variant/ eliminate.
As for my two cents on grades... I think it is similar to going from wicklow granit to 3 rock sloper topouts... different specialties, you may easily climb 7A in wicklow and take 3 trips to do a 5 in 3 rock
Going from what I've seen abroad, the grade ends up being defined eventually by consensus, and with the easiest sequence. Obvious old-school example from UK is the boulder problem Brad Pit which is graded using the modern easier method (and not with the original sequence - a couple of grades harder).
ReplyDeleteRoute examples are Rifle, Colorado where there are knee-bars galore. Grades are given assuming the use of knee-bars.
Whether they're routes or boulder problems, I still think the Cave is too short to be regarded as routes. I've seen some of the well-known-problems-that-are-discussed-as-routes and they're still much longer than what is in the Cave.
On a side note, do knee pads make a difference out there or are the rest points that good that you don't even need them?
Knee pads (plural!) are essential at the cave - the knee bars are SO sore...
ReplyDeleteMy knees are still black and blue!!
Good to know for future reference :)
ReplyDelete